E{emum} | What Makes a Great Equipment Operator? 40+ Years of Insight

From a 20 plus year instructor perspective, you know what characteristics of students make for good heavy equipment operators?

Well, we can see it when they like to be there on time.

This one proven the fact that they are interested.

Hey, we're not just going to dig a hole in the ground, but we're going to have specific exercises.

They want to put the time in on it, they get it and we coach them all the way.

Don't waste no time.

Dirt in the right place so you don't have to move it when you do your next dig.

What's one thing would you say that you're really proud of over the last 23 years?

If you're thinking about a career in the trades and you want to know what employers actually look for, what the work is really like, and what nobody tells you before you get started, you're in the right place.

Built in the Midwest features conversations that'll help you figure out if this path is for you.

Well, welcome, Emil, to the Built in the Midwest podcast.

I am super excited to have you, have you on the, on the show today.

As one of the most senior instructors at, at the school at North Country Heavy Equipment School.

I think of all the different projects that you and I have done together and all the great conversations that we have.

And so I'm like, you know what, I got to, I got to steal a few minutes of Emil's time.

All right.

If that's okay.

So, yeah, glad to be here.

So, so if we can kind of kick off, you know, you've been at the school how long now?

23 Years.

23 Years.

23 Years.

That's a, that's a long time to, to say the least.

Can you go back even further and think about the first time that you operated some heavy equipment?

Well, yes.

We had a backhoe mounted on the back end of a front end loader.

And it was a little large for the backhoe, but it hooked the hoses up and it worked wonderful.

Wow.

And how old were you?

I was probably 15, something like that.

I was still home on a farm.

Yeah.

And we put in septic tanks for different people in the neighborhood and as a business and drain fields.

So I've been doing it a long time.

And you still, still do that Once in a while.

And then we, we went into trucking.

So we were in the trucking business 43 years and Linda drove for 15 years, did a great job.

She just didn't care to deliver in Detroit no more.

No, I said, well, I don't.

I don't blame her there, you know, Thanksgiving time.

Oh absolutely.

But over 40.

Did you, did you team the majority of that time with.

With your wife Linda?

I was gone a lot on the road.

And we hauled for the meat paper in Escanaba for 13 years.

Pulpwood.

Oh yeah.

Saw logs for other sawmills.

And we were actually hooking up to their trailers, the six axle trailers.

And so you had to have a heavy duty trucks.

You had to have the heavy walking beams underneath them.

Everything called Michigan specials and to hold up so they would last.

But I wore all three brand new ones and then I start buying used ones which were a lot more reasonable cost and they went good.

We.

We'd overhaul our own engines and rear ends and transmissions.

So I learned a lot through all my days.

And we started out with a horse and buggies and hall and firewood on big sleighs, double bunk sleighs with a.

Horse and buggy with two, two horses.

It had to be a team of horses.

Grandpa had a team.

We had a team.

And you could haul logs out of the woods.

We loaded with a jammer that was built by dad and I and my brothers.

And we use that to load logs with a set of tongs on each end to hook in the log and then up it goes.

And had a team of horses pulling, pulling down the cable.

That cable had to be anchored close to the ground so the horses wouldn't pull up on the tugs.

So it pulled decent in the area to where it didn't hurt them.

Oh yeah.

And.

And then somebody had to drive that.

So it took like three guys to load some logs on the truck.

But it was better than rolling them up on skids.

Once we did that too.

About three guys on the log and roll them a little bit at a time and they pretty soon are up on a rack.

Yeah.

And halts with local sawmills.

That's.

That's amazing.

But.

But horse.

Horse and buggy.

And I remember you telling me a story about, about.

About getting the horses through the, through the swamp and how you'd pull, uh.

How did that work again?

You'd pull it.

Pull like.

Oh, something through the swamp first to help it freeze.

Yes.

And that was usually walking one horse, riding that horse or if it got too deep in the mud and snow.

That's how we would pack our trails.

Then we could come down the trail with a team and the, the sleighs wouldn't sink in the, in the ground and through the snow.

But they would back to snow.

And then we used to drag a heavy chain, make a loop hook that onto the outside of edges of the whipple trees on the horse.

And then you could pull that looped chain and that would level off the snow and it would also settle it, settle the snow down and it would freeze at night.

So we're always praying and hoping for a cold night so we could have our woods roads froze down.

And pretty soon we could actually drive a straight job truck down that trail if was brushed out enough and haul that wood out without putting it on a sleigh first.

Otherwise it was put it on a sleigh then haul it out and then put it on a truck.

And we used to haul the Oconnell Falls pulpwood.

And another place was Peshtigo had a paper mill and I had hauled they like dry balsam because it was ready for them to start making paper with right away.

So they said whenever you come in with a load of dry balsam we're going to put it in a separate pile.

So when we use it it's not going to be mixed with a fresh cut balsam and it's.

It's going to turn out better paper.

Yeah.

Wow.

Did you ever know paper mill and pesticle?

Oh yeah, yeah.

Back in the day.

That was a big one.

I think of that one.

I think of the one in Ontonagan, Niagara, Wisconsin.

I know there's been a.

There's been a lot of them that have closed down over the last last 40 years.

Smaller ones had to close down and let the bigger ones do a more different kinds of paper.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's like the mill here now in Escanaba that's going to.

Going to start producing a cardboard.

Cardboard.

Yeah.

And more like I heard like a food grade cardboard too so that it can handle like KFC boxes, McDonald's bags and boxes and different things that are.

That are food grade.

Yeah.

Because they're.

I don't know if you realize the paper sales is way down because everything goes through a computer now and they don't need all that paper.

No, no.

And I think naturally, you know, maybe this is just part of the evolution of different industries where, where you know what your conventional newspaper, you know, is not nearly as prevalent as it once was or printer paper.

But there's other types of paper.

I mean look at like paper bags, paper straws, paper food containers.

I mean look at, look at corget.

I mean look at boxes.

Right.

I know my wife's got a box delivered to Our house almost daily, you know.

Well, because it's easier for her to order stuff online, you know.

And so you think of all the stuff that gets shipped.

I mean just in our hometown there is a pretty big ups distribution center.

There's a FedEx distribution center and there's an Amazon distribution center now.

So you look at everything that's being shipped in boxes.

It's.

It's crazy.

It really is.

Yeah.

And they can get it to the customer fast and in one piece.

And so people keep buying it.

Absolutely.

You know, but it's interesting.

You're talking about that, you know, running a horse through the woods, pulling a big chain behind it and kind of a drag to pack it down because.

And you're probably the first person I've ever met that.

That has prayed for a frozen night throughout the whole winter.

But.

But you weren't able to cut those trees or to harvest those trees in those areas if you didn't have that frozen night.

Because if it was mucky and muddy, you weren't going to be able to get through.

Right.

Even the iron mules would have to kind of pack their trails before.

But they could try pack them with the iron meal because they had the big wide tires on them.

But not every farmer would have iron mule sitting around.

Absolutely.

But those are really popular too.

A lot of people had iron mules.

You remember the mule company was.

I forget the name of it.

Not the harness figure was here.

Harness Figure was here.

But they made iron mules.

Yeah.

Just up the road.

Yeah.

And the.

That company pumped out a lot of them.

And you still see them a lot in farmers backyards and here and there.

I mean that was.

Those were popular units.

I know my grandpa had one growing up.

And that's.

That's how he.

Because he, he built.

Built his house, he built his camp and that's how we got the lumber out of the woods and is.

To make the lumber was that iron mule.

Yeah.

And I had a brother in law that was.

He worked at Harness Figure.

But when harness Figure shut down, he bought the iron mule and he went in the woods and he.

He went for hire.

Okay.

Yeah.

And he would haul so many cords of pulpwood, bring them out to a landing where a big truck could come in and pump truck with a loader on it.

Like you guys got.

Oh yeah.

And load and not worry about having to get stuck or nothing like that.

Or going up quarters.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Well.

And it's funny how, you know, the log industry has changed significantly in different aspects, but also really hasn't changed at all.

And the fact that even, even today they, they can't go log a swamp in the summertime or a low lying area.

I know a lot of loggers that have specific jobs laid out for the winter time just, just to be able to wait till everything freezes.

And as well as some of those roads that go through swamp, those are not all season roads.

And you see some roads that are just, just good in the summer, other roads are just good in the winter when that road can freeze.

And so people have been looking at that and using the weather to their advantage for, for a long time that way.

Yeah, I remember we used to get a lot more snow, but now you, you guys, I go to Florida in winter time, but you guys are here,.

Keep rubbing it in, you know, elements fighting the good fight up here.

I tell you what.

Oh, it's.

And lots of snow.

Yes.

Yeah, we get.

Oh, that one storm this year dropped 52 inches of snow.

It was like March, March 15th.

And I remember it because the, the schools all shut down for two days and it took four days to, to plow everything out.

And you couldn't, it was one of the only storms that you couldn't plow with a pickup truck.

It was too much snow to plow with a pickup truck.

It was.

The plow on your pickup truck didn't have enough meat behind it.

Oh, it was, it was, it was, yes, it was, it was heavy.

It was heavy.

It was wet and it was, the drifts were thick.

I mean thick and, and it was just, I mean.

But 52 inches.

It was, I mean there were drifts that were well over your head and it was unbelievable.

I heard some people couldn't even get out of their house sometimes.

Oh, oh yeah.

You had a drift in the front.

You literally couldn't open the door.

And it was, it was terrible, terrible that way.

And it was, it was unbelievable.

The entire, I would say the entire.

Up for the most part just.

It shut.

Especially Delta and Menominee counties.

It shut down for a week.

My kids school was closed for a week and a half.

Yes.

Over that big snowstorm.

So paper mill had a shut down too, too.

Because people couldn't get out.

Yeah, well, yeah, they couldn't.

They, they couldn't go into work.

And I know, I know a few guys that spent their nights in their pickup trucks in the parking lot of the mill because they couldn't get home.

You couldn't.

And I know several other guys that took their snowmobiles to work because that was the only way that you could get in because the, the roads weren't, weren't clear.

So.

But I, but I'll tell you what, that whole week and in the winter time, we do this every winter, but all the students get to plow and so they're, they're operating the front end loader, the backhoe, the track loader, the dozer, plowing all the different yards, the last everything, and they had a blast.

They plowed for a week and still.

Get their experience of running a machine, just a different material that you're handling.

Absolutely.

And that's, and that's one thing out.

Of here too, didn't you?

Oh, yeah.

So the heavy equipment guys, for like the next week, I think they, that's what they did is bring the dump trucks on over and they would haul the snow because there's just so much of it.

You had to haul it away, essentially haul that out of here to be able to have the space to train.

It didn't shut the school down for long.

No, no, two days.

Two days.

Two days.

And, and yeah, it was.

But that's a lot shorter than my kids school that was shut down for a week and a half, you know,.

So you're going to have another top one last winter.

Oh, don't do that, Emil.

All right.

No, I think it's going to be an easy one.

All right.

I'm putting the good vibes out there.

I.

No, they said that the El Nino year, so I'm not, I'm still like scarred from last year's snowstorm.

Oh, I tell you what, it was, it was a full pull.

It, it really was.

The, the, the kind of winters that we get here in the U.P.

I, I think to an extent they're, they're unlike the 95% of places in the country.

I really do believe that because I've traveled around the country and the winners in the up, I mean, even just from Upper Peninsula to Lower Peninsula, it's night and day.

It's night and day in the same state.

Completely different state when it comes to how the weather patterns are.

It's, I mean, we had that polar vortex a few years ago where it was below 0 degrees for a month straight.

Yeah.

Now that was fun.

That was fun for the whole family.

Desert storm, it stayed 20 below for one month.

Yes.

We were selling Christmas trees in Chicago.

Yeah.

Because we did a lot of that.

Oh, yeah.

So it's, it's definitely something else.

But, but I think that's where the heavy equipment operator students, they, they really I mean we see a lot of guys that come through the wintertime because they want a chance to plow snow.

They want a, even on the truck driving school side of things, they want to be able to drive in the ice and the snow and the adverse weather conditions.

And if you come through in December, January, February, March, you're guaranteed to, to have adverse weather condition training because there's not a week that goes by that we don't have something.

Right.

And it used to be more up towards Marquette, the heavy snow.

Yep.

Is for me.

Yeah.

But now it seems to be working its way south a little bit more.

For sure.

Some of that, some of that real, real big snowstorms.

I mean, because I, I, I don't remember a whole lot of storms dropping 52 plus inches.

And that's, that's a, that was a boatload unusual to say the least.

Well, again, in the heavy equipment side.

So over 20 years at North Country Heavy Equipment School, how has the industry changed over the last 20 years?

Big, big time change.

The computers, I, I can, I can operate my phone, answer a phone, and if I can get it to go on before the person hangs up.

And working with the heavy equipment, I don't hear my phone, I don't bother putting it on vibrate.

And so unless I'm in a doctor's office, that's what's happening.

Yeah, but yeah, I don't try to keep up with the computer stuff at all because I just got enough doing my training here for you guys.

I want to do a good job.

I want the students to have a confidence when they leave here that they're not afraid to do any exercise that is, can be done with that machine.

So we do try a lot of different exercises.

Well, and that's where, that's where there's been so much technology in all industries.

And you know, obviously computers are so prevalent and popular but, but it is one of those things that, you know, I, I grew up, I didn't grow up with computers, but I grew up into them, you know what I mean?

Like they, they were, you know, I didn't have my first smartphone until after high school a ways.

You know, nowadays people are getting smartphones in, you know, fourth grade.

I mean, they're working on computers.

In kindergarten we had the Grandparents day that we attended at Power Spalding School and we were, we kind of knew, we heard about the computers, but we didn't think that fourth and fifth graders would be working on a computer, doing lessons on a computer.

And so we were like in Odd when we stood behind them and watched them do things on the computer that they didn't even talk about at home.

No, they just did it at school.

Yeah.

We did not have a computer at home for many years.

So.

No, it was typing out our bills for our modes that we delivered and the amount of freight that we would charge for that load and, and did a lot of figuring on a pencil and paper.

Absolutely.

Worked out just fine.

Yeah.

And it's, it was a big change for us older people.

Yeah, absolutely.

But I still would, I'd like to see change, but sometimes it's just too much scary.

But.

Yep, absolutely.

But I think that's the beauty of heavy equipment.

And I, I operated a newer front end loader here recently.

Okay.

And it really wasn't much different.

Okay.

Than that, than that Fiat Alice at camp which was what's in the 60s, 70s, you know what I mean?

So, you know, heavy equipment has been pretty, pretty much the same to an extent for, for, for many years that way, you know, and so from, from a, you know, 20 plus year instructor perspective, you know, what characteristics of students make for good heavy equipment operators?

Well, we can see it when they like to be there on time.

This one proven the fact that they are interested in.

Absolutely.

When they read their paperwork on our projects that we do, we have a very good set of pictures and statements on the paperwork.

Sometimes it's three pages before you even go out to the field to actually try to do that job.

And they learn how to follow a pattern of blueprint.

And we tell them that's the important part.

Because if their foreman puts them on a job and says we want you to lay some pipe for a drain fill that has to be within the, you know, quarter inch or else the drain fill won't work, it's going to back up, it's going to go the wrong way and their job is going to have to be redone and we don't want that to happen.

So we make sure they understand all that before they leave.

And they're really only there for a month now, two and a half days on each machine.

And it sounds like a small amount of time, but most of them get the projects done right and they're amazed by what, what they learned in the short time.

Absolutely.

But I think a big part about that too is, you know, people think, all right, so we got level one heavy common operator training is three weeks long.

Level two heavy common operator training, three weeks long doesn't seem like a long time.

But when you're there Eight hours a day, operate steady, you know, and these, these courses are full immersion type courses where you, you come at 8am and you are there all day.

And that's what you're doing is you're operating heavy equipment, you're pulling the levers, the joysticks, you're learning how to grease these machines, you're getting comfortable with these machines.

And then, you know, the other thing that you mentioned is like putting in a leech field or a drain field and, and how important that is.

And so it sounds like a lot of the operating that you do over there is kind of exercise based where, hey, we're not just gonna dig a hole in the ground, but we're going to have specific exercises.

Talk about that.

Like, how do you come up with those exercises?

Why is that important?

Well, because it's, it's real life experiences.

And if you practice it right, you're going to get it right and you're going to make the homeowner happy that, that he went to school and he did.

He learned how to do it right in the most economical way.

Don't waste no time.

Put your dirt in the right place so you don't have to move it when you do your next dig.

Sometimes you haul that dirt away.

You'd load it right in the dump truck and haul it to a different area in your yard because it's either a low spot or spot that it's.

You had to get rid of it in order to finish your many pipelines that you put down.

So that saves time when they don't have to go over the same thing all the time.

And so anyway, they'd say, why do it this way?

Well, sometimes we actually let them do it the way they thought it was.

Right.

Pretty soon they said, oh, I got to dig another pipeline over here and I end up putting my dirt there.

So yeah, it's.

And they are, they're surprised themselves how, how good they can get with a machine with a big bucket on it like the big excavator, the grater.

The grater can move a lot of dirt if you angle the blade the right way and try to get your, your lawn leveled off.

Or even with a dozer.

That's a very hard machine to learn how to run.

But if they want to put the time in on it, they get it.

And we coach them all the way, we're there for them.

Absolutely.

So there's a lot of different things there that I think are important to recognize is like, you know, where you're digging a Trench.

Okay, where am I going to put that spoil pile right.

If I'm making a four run leech field?

Well, I put, probably shouldn't put the spoil pile right next to where I'm going to be making another trench.

Then you've got to double the amount of soil you're moving.

Exactly.

And I think about like the other thing, like when loading dump trucks with the front end loader and, and how to line up the front end loader to the pile, but also that dump truck to the pile to make the least amount of movement into that, into that dump truck.

A hard turn.

You don't have to turn a hard turn if you park, right?

Nope, exactly.

So it's how, how you park and what that, what that looks like is, is, is important.

And so there's so many different aspects to it.

Why can't a student just learn one piece of equipment and then they're good?

No, because they're, they're all doing a little different job.

Like the front end loader can lift high enough to reach it over a dump box.

And I even found people that only had a smaller front end loader.

They said, I can't, I can't reach to put that soil or gravel in the dump box.

There's a way to park that dump box.

All you need to do is cut a little 6 or 8 inch trench for one wheel of that dump truck.

Now that dump truck, when you back it into that little ridge that you made, you are gaining so much with your front end loader because you're on the high side of it.

And now pretty soon you can see your inside of your box and dump it and still get a full load and drive out.

I told that to somebody in Florida and the guy said, I got to buy a new tractor.

He had a new Kubota, but it was a mini Kubota.

Yeah.

And he couldn't reach over his wagon.

It's called a spreader.

Okay.

Yeah.

Conveyor belt on, on the bottom.

And it can spread.

On his blueberry garden that he had, he had.

Oh yeah.

Blueberry bushes that grow like four feet.

Okay.

High.

Yeah.

And they're just hanging with blueberries.

But he said I can haul my mulch out to him and spread it.

And then they have a side like a chopper wagon.

It has a side shift of a conveyor belt that shoves, that chips wood chips out and then they deteriorate over the root system and they make fertilizer for that blueberry bush or any kind of trees or anything.

And I heard that's really good for them.

It holds moisture into the ground, gives them the natural fertilizer.

Yep.

The right.

Whatever they call that, like the concentration.

Fertilizer that it needs.

You don't have to ever rake.

Just don't bury the trunk of the tree too much.

Get it up to the root system, but don't go too high to bury the tree, because the tree actually in the bush will start to die.

Yeah.

So you want to just keep it just a little ways away, but that shoots it out to your bushes.

A neat machine.

But it the.

He bought a second machine, and it had a bigger hopper on it, bigger container so you can haul more.

But he said, I can't reach in it no more.

So you're thinking of cutting the side down.

So I said, no, we're gonna cut with the bat.

What is.

He had a little backhoe tool, and he could cut a little bit of a trench to drop just that one set of wheels on that.

On that spreader.

And it makes a big difference on how high.

You have to raise your bucket now, and he can load it.

He called me up, he said, emil, I did what you said.

And he said, I can load my trailer now.

No, I don't use the neighbor's tractor, the bigger farm tractor the neighbor had with a larger bucket tool.

And he used that for three days.

And I ran it for him for three days down there.

And I could tell them just how many days of work we had with that size machine.

Yeah.

So I predicted three days, and it was three days from eight to five.

And you.

You knew.

You knew based on the size of the pile, what they were doing.

It's like, all right, how did you come up with that calculation?

What kind of algorithm did you have?

You don't need it.

But anyway, they had the people that Aspen people that go cutting trees for the power line.

Yep.

And they needed a place to get rid of their chips.

So they chip it as they cut the limbs off and load in their little straight job truck with a opening in the back.

And she got a hold of them from different areas in the Citrus county.

And they haul them loads and dump them in a big field that she has.

And they could.

When they dump it, they can actually end up with a pile four feet high.

And they just bump one load right up against the other one.

So now you got a 4 foot high for maybe 100ft long and maybe 30ft wide or something like that.

Yep.

They got a lot of room to put.

And we clean that pile right up.

I'LL be darn.

I'll be darn.

And then they're using that as essentially natural fertilizer to put in there.

It's like I'll even put my grass shavings in my garden.

And you know they break down really quickly and apply some real natural fertilizer to your.

To your garden.

So yeah, no that just.

That just makes.

Makes sense.

And he was going to take his whole tractor in because it was rattling in the front end.

What's a four wheel drive?

Kubota and I took a look at it.

He wanted wait.

I got down there and this is about three or four years ago and I said why would you haul your whole tractor in for?

To find out what this rattle is.

I said take it out of four wheel drive.

He took it out of four wheel drive and he just drove it.

He said the rattles gone front rear end.

Yeah, the gears were just chewed right off.

He.

He went by the book and is.

That because he kept it in four wheel drive all the time or.

No, what happened is the book manual says to change the grease in the rear ends.

So he changed agree the oils in the rear ends, the two rear ends.

But when he put it in the front rear end it.

He didn't wait to check to with the dipstick on the front axle.

It's just a little short dipsticks because the front axles will like that big around.

But he didn't wait till it ran down into the gears down below.

He drained it from below the the where the front wheels anchor and then they, they have to drop down maybe so far to keep the tractor off of the.

Yeah and he only added till it says full.

But he didn't.

You got to give it some time to run down and all the spider.

Gears that's like 80, 90 weight weight oil and it.

It's going to take a minute to get into the whole.

The whole axle and everything.

And he says after I put till it was full.

But he didn't read how many quarts to put in there.

It would have been a good idea to read how many quartz quartz to fill that and then you wait so long till it runs down and then add again before you even go drive it around.

Absolutely.

So no, what we did, we took that front axle off right there in his yard have it jacked up and take the parts, take it all apart, spindles, everything and find out which gears I wore.

And it was the upper ones because of no grease getting up there, no oil.

And he was so happy we put the Parts together and they fit in the area about this big, about a foot long.

And he said what an idea.

We didn't have to load that tractor.

We didn't have to bring it 50 miles down the road where the Kubota dealer was.

We just bring them little gears in.

The spider gears were gone.

Just the problem.

This is the problem.

500 For parts.

And I, my labor was cheap because I didn't charge them.

Nothing comes in helping me in my yard.

In his yard.

So we exchanged time like that.

Like they used to do in olden days.

Yeah.

No, I, I love that.

I love that.

But enjoyed it.

But doing it.

But it's, it's funny how, you know sometimes the most effective approach is the simplest one.

You know, that's.

Let's just take it apart.

See something's going on with that.

You know, let's just take that rear.

In out of your log truck.

Yeah.

I knew it was wrong before I tore it apart.

You knew exactly what it.

Well, not only you knew what's wrong but you knew what happened.

What happened and how it broke.

And we were talking about that story.

I'm like how do you know that?

And he was like, well, because it happened to me too.

With a driver on.

Yep.

I told him what hill he's going to get a real chance of getting stuck in.

Going in the woods empty with a six axle trailer.

And when he called me up, he told me it's the hill you told me about.

And I put the power divider in while I was already spinning in that hill.

And I'll break that gear every time.

It's a gear that goes in.

When you put the switch in the cab.

It gives it air.

It's your power, your power divider, your inter axle diff lock.

And I showed you the four parts.

And you cannot engage that.

And this goes for everyone out there.

You can engage that power divider.

If the wheels are spinning.

It should be spinning.

It should be coasting.

Yeah.

Pushing that clutch.

So to ensure that those wheels aren't spinning.

But too many people just reach down and grab that.

And it's always on ice or snow or something like that when they're losing traction.

Yeah.

And it's like.

But the best way is to anticipate that hill.

That.

Okay, I'm starting from a stop and I'm on ice.

I'm going to spin a little bit.

Let's engage that while I'm stopped to be able to give us that extra power before, before we start spinning.

You're going to slow down because there's a curve right below this little hill and you.

That letter, of course, put the clutch in like you said, flip the lever, let the clutch out slow because it is a gear shift and otherwise them spiders are just flying around and they can't clunk.

Yeah.

Broke that year, that gear was 700.

Just that gear plus the time that we were involved in waiting for it to arrive that order.

And another day we.

We just quit working on it because we had it all apart.

Part was, got the number part number off it and ordered it and wait a few days for it to come.

Yeah, but we could park that one because at that time you had to log.

Yeah, yeah, but it was one of those things where, you know, so much of this stuff is preventable.

Right.

We.

We make our own problems a lot of times.

But I always tell the guys at my age, I. I had a lot of different things go wrong.

And it's life and you, you don't forget it.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that same driver said, whenever you work on that transmission, that rear end, could I come and help you?

He said, I want to know what's going on inside them.

Yeah, exactly.

Housing.

Exactly.

And he did.

He came and he worked and he understood.

It never happened again.

Well, and I've heard a lot of comments on the evals and different things.

Talking to graduates of the have you come and operator program.

That's one thing that they really enjoy.

They enjoy working, working with you and the other instructors kind of diagnosing problems that, you know, what heavy equipment, it doesn't matter what it is, it's going to break, things are going to happen.

You know, it is what it is, but you got to be willing to dive into it a little bit, play around with it, open up the, Open up the manual and start reading on what potentially this could be.

You know, call around, look at the schematics of different things.

And a lot of headcount operator students, they love that because they're like, hey, this is not just grease in the machine, which is super important.

Every time before we operate it, we're going to grease that machine and make sure it's ready to go, protecting our pins and bushings and everything else.

But also, hey, if there's something going wrong, like, you know what, let's take a look at it and let's see if we can diagnose the problem and maybe we can fix it if it's.

Squeaking, maybe try to figure out why.

Yep.

We use that front, that backhole bucket for low sand in the woods that you're here a couple years.

Oh, yeah.

And it was squeaking.

And we thought it was because it was lack of grease.

Well, by using it steady, the Teflon bushings were heating up and tightening up.

Yep.

And we couldn't get that to stop.

We tried oiling from the sides.

Then we called McCoy.

Yeah.

And they said, don't be putting no grease fittings on them bushings.

They're not made for that.

The Teflon is going to last as long as probably the tractor.

And when it cooled off, there was no more squeaking.

So it was literally just because that Teflon actually heated up.

Steady moving.

And it was steady, and it caused it to.

Well, and when you're loading a dump truck, you're loading, loading, loading, and you're using it a lot.

I think we had two dump trucks falling.

Yeah.

So we're loading steady.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And we felt it.

Remember, you came out and we felt them pushing areas.

Yeah.

And they were hot.

They were hot.

Yeah.

You could not hold your hand on them.

Absolutely.

That was like that time that guy was blowing the dump truck and the backhoe started to overheat.

And I come up on it.

It was a student.

He's like, I don't know what's going on.

And I took a look, and I was like, let me hop in.

And I go to go forward.

And.

Well, he had in third gear.

And.

And I was like, no, we don't load trucks in third gear.

We don't load trucks in second gear.

I was like, you're way over doing it on the engine.

You're gonna heated up to the point where it's too hot and you think it's faster, but it's really not because it requires a lot more power.

And third gears for going fast.

You're not going fast when you're loading.

Loading a dump truck.

And so your bucket's loaded.

It's.

It's got a chance to flop.

Exactly.

And it needs that.

It needs that torque.

It needs that power.

And so just understanding things like that, you know, for.

For students.

And he had no idea.

It's like, no.

There's nothing mechanically wrong with the backhoe.

Just.

Just get a full bucket and put it in first gear.

All right.

We don't.

We don't.

I mean, third gear.

We're not driving down the road.

All right.

We don't need to.

But we're constantly switching students on machines every two to days, so you got to repeat that same thing.

But yeah, we have to have a lot of Patience.

We have to talk to them in a way that they don't get intimidated by.

And like, I even tell them, youth are like my children at my age now, my grandchildren.

Yeah, yeah.

So.

And I still have lots of patience.

Yes, you do.

I love to just see him learn something.

Because when we were on a farm, dad would say he'd bring a machine, a home from he.

Because he hauled for Barker Poverty Equipment company.

Heavy machine.

He would have first chance at buying that used one that he traded in.

Yep.

That's why we ended up with so much equipment on a farm.

And the drag line.

Oh, yeah, we bought.

Dad bought a bird's eye veneer here in Escanaba.

Used to be on Lincoln Road, right downtown and First Avenue.

Lincoln Road first.

Yeah.

Big veneer plant.

You got to look it up on the Internet.

Okay.

Yeah, dad bought that right downtown Escanaba.

Yeah.

Come on.

Lincoln Road and First Avenue.

Yeah.

But it had a pulp bucket on it, a log handling bucket for the veneer logs.

And so that's a clam.

It ran off of cables.

No.

No hydraulic system on it at all.

So my brother Bert, he hauled.

He drove it home 18 miles.

But the steering wheel was on the side, so you sat like this here.

Was it dual wheels on the front that had to be turned?

Yep.

It was solid wheels on the back.

And one of them axles had to have a teeter totter because you can't have all four axle.

Your two axles.

Solid.

Yeah.

Your machine, as soon as you run over a high spot, the whole machine would lift if it had a row.

A solid at.

Too solid.

Exactly.

So anyway, gotta have some gifts at home.

We took the boom off, put it on a semi trailer, haul the boom home, unhook all the cables, run them through the spools, you know, so they're all wound up, and then hook them back up when you get home, put the boom back on.

Oh, wow.

Wow.

You know, and that.

It's those types of experiences, I think, that are just a lot of people never seen anything like that before.

So if you do, you have an old picture of that.

Of that unit.

You know, we didn't take much years ago because you had to wait for that film to get developed.

Yeah.

You had to bring them in.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

And then it would take a long time and.

And.

And the picture had to be good.

I mean, you know what?

You didn't.

You didn't take any practice pictures.

All right.

It was.

You got.

We got one shot at this homemade.

Jammer and pulled by horses to move it from one area that had runners of big logs.

Yeah, for runners.

And they were sharpened or tilted on each end so you could pull it either way.

If you want to go that way with it, you go that way.

Because they're already had that slant to the front of the log.

And we had to put two team together to pull it from like dad's farm up towards grandpa's farm.

Oh, sure, Grandpa's farm.

And we were logging the big stuff off the big maple logs.

Absolutely.

And most of them were veneer logs, dogs.

Well, and back in the day, that was all piece cutters doing that.

They didn't have the big harvesters and.

Processors had the big saws in the basement because they wouldn't even let them set outside for rust.

And they had to have that very sharp with the long teeth on it and a handle on each end for one man on that end.

One man on this end, and one pulls that.

Well, and that literally a hand saws.

When you're cutting a tree that big, you'd hate to.

To even start.

But they cut trees that big because we've seen the stumps from grandpa cutting and then from me cutting with a power saw.

Wow.

Wow.

That's a lot of work.

That's were like five feet long.

Yeah, absolutely.

But you had a guy on one one side, guy on the other, and you had to work, work together, push,.

Pull, sit on either.

No.

So they cut the stumps higher and snow was steeper years ago.

So the stumps would be 3, 4ft off the ground.

Absolutely.

You wouldn't want to be too low.

You want to be too high.

You want to be probably chest height.

You know what I mean?

Something comfortable.

Well, especially a big.

A big log like that, you're there for.

How long would it take to cut down?

Well, like I said, it was sharp.

And they had breakers set at the point where you barely could pull that saw through the log because it was taking off so much wood at a time.

Big.

Big ships required.

Yeah.

So.

So how do you put a notch in it?

You still have to make the notch.

You have to make an arch and you have to leave a hinge.

You never cut it right through.

You leave a hinge for when the tree starts to move.

It moves in the direction you ask for it to move.

Yep.

So you still had to notch it and you still hang up.

Well, no, exactly.

Exactly.

Wow.

Wow.

So many.

So many interesting things there.

That picture taking time too, you know?

Well, absolutely.

We don't have none.

Because not only do you not see that anymore with people cutting on trees with, with big old hand saws and what went into that?

You don't even see people cutting down trees with chainsaws anymore.

I mean, big machines, you got the big machines to do that, the big processors and forwarders and harvesters and so.

Many hot sauce and everything else in a short time.

It would take weeks to tell you all the stories.

Yeah, that I know.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

It's.

It's amazing.

So what's, what's one thing would you say that you're, you're really proud of over the last 23 years?

Well, operating heavy, you know, helping students operate.

Operate.

Yeah, I'm.

I'm proud of that.

I have this job because even though I know how to run it, I want somebody else to know how to, if they're interested in it.

And then it's.

It's really sad when you do run across somebody that don't care, you know, and you can't make them care.

You can only try and do the best you can.

That's what we tell them.

You do your project once with that machine, a backhoe or skidster or excavator, just do the best you can.

And they, they try to get a little confidence and you, you get on the machine yourself and you told them you should.

You let them know that this can be done and it's not that hard.

I don't even think what lever I'm pulling no more because I just do it so much to move a lever and I can get in a different machine that I never ran before and just barely touch the levers and it just seems like it stays with me.

And now I can do it quicker and quicker.

And you still got to do it safely.

Absolutely.

Well, I know you've, you've made a huge impact, significant impact on hundreds and hundreds of students lives that are out there now.

And they could be in heavy command operator apprenticeships at the different unions that we work with.

They could be at road commissions.

I've seen students go to mines, see students go to road building companies and paving companies and construction companies and start their own businesses.

But you, your impact will last on.

For, for years and years and years about.

And the difference that you made in these people's lives and that you continue to make in these people's lives.

That's all I can ask for.

Yeah, it's amazing.

What's important to me.

Well, well, you are one of one, Emil, you know that?

So we thank you.

We thank you for being here and thank you for everything that you do.

And, and I'll give you the last word.

Anything else you want to, you want to add.

There's, there's a lot, but we covered pretty much.

But throughout my years of being on a farm, when dad bought the land and when we got old enough, we were, we were out there working alongside of him.

He did buy a stone picker, but it was one that you pull behind a tractor and you just lowered it down almost like a potato digger.

And then the stones would slide in and forks that were actually in the ground were spaced so much that it would catch all the bigger stones.

The smaller ones didn't cause you too much for problems on equipment.

But once you turn a fuel into hay, you cut that as close to the ground as you can so that sickle will ride right on the ground.

It got guards with thick shoes on them so they ride right on the ground.

Combining.

You cut the grain higher.

Higher.

Yeah.

Corn.

You cut the grain higher or the corn higher.

But yeah.

And, and we dug potatoes with a potato digger one row at a time with 10 kids in a family, plant a lot of potatoes and everybody ate potatoes.

Yeah.

And if you had potatoes and bread, which ma would bake at least twice a week and many loaf spread.

But when you're a kid running around, you could eat a half a loaf of bread yourself.

I didn't.

I'd eat five slices of bread.

Well, and that was homemade bread too.

Yeah.

You were spoiled.

Emo.

To heal you to heal.

Was it of the blade?

Exactly.

All bread loaves had two heels, so.

And now.

Yeah.

You'd go for the heel because you could cut it thicker, make it hold together good, put lots of butter.

And we didn't have butter.

We, we had a margarine.

Yeah.

And you could buy five pounds of margarine for a dollar at Bombs Bomb store where the fire.

Was it margarine or.

It was.

Or lard or.

No, no, it was margarine.

I'll be darn interesting.

And it wasn't butter.

So when we did try butter at somebody else's house, it was like too rich for us too.

Oh, interesting.

Because it wasn't what you were, you were, you were used to and everything else.

Margarine.

And there was four squares quarters to that.

Oh yeah.

Interesting.

The butter.

You buy butter.

It was more like in a larger cake.

Yeah, yeah.

And the.

In the fresh bread.

I'll tell you what, my, my grandma used to make the best fresh bread in the world.

And now actually my sister in law is Starting to make bread as well.

So I'm trying to get my wife into it as well.

But we'll get there.

We'll get there.

But you know, kind of bringing back some of these traditional things that.

Hey, the flavor.

Yeah, no, it's great.

There is something about it.

You eat fresh bread, bake your own.

There's.

You just can't beat it.

There's something about it.

Well, well, Emo.

I want to be respectful of your time.

So thank you very much for joining me today.

Okay.

I really appreciate it.

I want to say one more thing.

Yeah.

You asked me about what stayed with me.

Well, just what Everything stays with me.

But I built the first dragline bucket that we had because that machine that they bought from dad bought from Bird's Eye Veneer only had a log bucket that's clammed it well.

We use that same machine to hook that bucket up to.

And I. I use parts from an old tractor with the iron wheels.

The bowl over the top was a front iron wheel that I just cut the spokes out.

And it was a nice wide, wide iron wheel.

And it made the boat over the top of the sure dragon bucket.

But just some iron.

We had to buy some plates of steel, cut holes in the side so it had holes so it could release the dirt.

Otherwise the dirt like to.

If it was like damp and wet and it didn't have no way to get air.

So it was like a vacuum holding that dirt in there.

Especially clay.

But we were able to build ponds with it.

I used the teat from the back wheels.

Some teeth that are.

Would.

Would be cleats to.

So you wouldn't spin.

Yep.

And.

And then what I did is heat up the pointed part of it and draw the two wide parts together.

Cut the parts off that were riveted to the.

The big wheel and made the teeth for the dragline bucket.

Tilted them down and welded them to the bottom steel plate.

I made like five, six teeth and it worked perfect.

Well.

And that's how you're able to dig in.

Dig in and open it up.

Wow.

It's amazing how I enjoy doing that.

Times have.

Times have changed in different things in the old drag lines.

But that's how even the bay.

That's how they did it back in the den in the day to.

To be able to open up the base so ships could come in as they.

They.

Exactly.

They had a dredger.

They.

They had a dredger and a big old dragline.

Dragline on.

Or else they could use a clam bucket.

If they put sides on it.

We did that.

We made a sand bucket.

Okay.

And that worked good for loading dump trucks, all cables.

But the thing is, I want to tell you, too, is I built that record womb with that four airbag system.

You sure did.

A coincidence you guys ended up your dad.

Yeah, I. I saw.

No, it wasn't my dad.

It was.

It was Niagara logistics.

Yeah.

They.

They had.

I know.

Somehow had it.

But sure enough, there was a emo lefebvre that was.

I don't know, it was, like, welded in there.

I believe I saw it, and I'm like.

And had four airbags on it.

And I'm like, get the heck out of there.

And they were still using it.

What I did, I drawed up a plan.

So I followed it.

That.

There's a name for it.

I can't think of it right now.

It's a.

It's a drawing.

Yeah.

I took drafting in school.

Yeah.

Okay.

Drafting did me a lot of good because whenever I thought of building something, I would draw up a plan, put some measurements on it.

Now I got something to follow.

If you don't have nothing to follow, you got some iron and you got a welder and a torch, but you don't know what you're doing.

Exactly.

I want to know what I'm doing.

You gotta have a plan.

And that record boom is still in business today.

Yeah, exactly.

You should have patented that.

I know.

Because we didn't have no money.

Yeah.

We didn't have money to.

I. I had got.

I think it come from Washington, D.C. a patent kit, like.

But it started out with getting an attorney and having them work on it with you, and you start paying thousands of dollars.

And that's why I didn't get it.

I wanted to.

Yeah.

The worst way.

And I didn't get it.

So it's nice to see it go by once in a while.

Hauling another semi truck.

And what we used to do for different companies, we would be their recovery people.

Linda and I would.

Would drive.

She would be my spare driver.

Yeah.

And we could drive day and night.

We went out to Bristol, Tennessee, pick up one for Graham.

But we brought him a truck.

We brought the driver a truck when he burnt the motor and put the rod through the block.

Oh, wow.

And then we dropped a good truck off and let them come home.

Go deliver his load wherever it went, and come home with the truck that.

With the bad.

Genius.

Genius.

Once a month, we'd go get a truck someplace.

Yep.

Absolutely.

And it's still being used today.

And I've seen very similar designs that are probably based off of yours that you can.

You can commercially buy.

Now.

I will.

I'll have RJ look some of those up because you still see those all over the place.

Because I use.

The reason why I built that boom to haul trucks around was I used one.

I rented one from either Schultz equipment and it had a hydraulic jack.

And it was always a problem with the hydraulic jack.

Even have air bubbles in it.

You couldn't get your truck raised up off high enough.

Yeah.

So this airbag system, you always have air on the other truck that you're.

Absolutely.

So you hooked up the two glad hands to that.

You added your light cord for putting extra lights on your vehicle you're towing with a long wire.

And that's another thing.

The dad had a dipstick shovel like the mole mine shovels.

Yeah.

Dad bought one of them.

I didn't tell you that story.

No, I didn't have time.

No.

We can't get together.

Okay, well.

Well, we got to get together again.

Emo.

But I use parts of that boom.

The dipstick.

The dipstick was the square boom that.

Slid inside of the main boom.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

You had to keep that greased.

So it's that good.

I use that for the part of the boom to weld my channel irons on and the airbags.

And that part is still living today.

Yes, that.

That's actually the part that lifts up.

Via the airbags strong enough to run a mine shovel.

You know, the big shovel.

It'd be easy.

Plenty strong enough to lift up the back semi truck.

And the hooks to hook your frame of your truck right width.

So when you raised it big hooks were welded on a plate alongside a pipe that's about that big around.

And the hooks put it stood up.

So the chain cannot ever bounce out of there.

Once you have, there's always pressure on.

It aired up and lifted up.

I had a big pin part of that boom again.

The big pin that slid through the.

You.

Well, the pipe.

So you now you got more than just your plate of steel.

You weld the pipe.

So now the pin slides through that steel and through that bushing.

And so it's not going to go anywhere.

Airbags off.

Yeah.

Let the air out and let them relax.

And you carry it.

It carries on that big pin that went across.

Yep, exactly.

And there was a.

And it would hold it.

That's not going to come out or anything.

And.

And then you don't need to forever rely on those airbags.

So with what we found around when we jumped.

Yeah.

And repurposed.

Repurposed a lot of it.

To be able to make something that you used often and is still.

Still being used today.

I didn't have to worry about it bending or breaking because it held for that other purpose.

It's amazing.

On a dipstick shovel, you look up shovels and you'll be amazed.

They had some on railroad tracks just to work for the railroad.

And it's neat stuff.

Yeah, it's amazing.

It's amazing.

Well, thanks so much, Emo, for being here today.

We gotta.

We gotta have part two of this because there's.

I think there's a lot more that we can talk about and dive in and there's so much good stuff here.

So thanks again for being here today and I look forward to talking to you more about all this stuff.